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Is A Wall On The U.S. Southern Border A Good Idea?
in Politics
Debra AI Prediction
Arguments
Before Trump became the POTUS, many were onboard with the idea, of there being a border wall, and border security.
But once Trump became the POTUS, they, who were on board, decided against it, I guess apparently as a probable protest to the current POTUS?
Do those who are opposed to the POTUS, and the Border wall, do they speak for the entirety of the country?
No, they don't, they speak for 48% of the public, while 52% of the public agrees with the border wall.
It's basically, a public political chess match.
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No, it’s not.
A fence is a direct act of greed as it serves such a limited purpose the general welfare. We build a canal for others but not ourselves. What happened to make America first again?
A very big canal is a good idea a very long, deep, and wide canal. Largest manmade structure in existence. One ocean to the other. A method of transportation, a source of water, a way to desalinate added pollution of salts and chemical deicers in the oceans, a way to displace lots of water to effect water levels that rise, under ideal condition an effective way to redirect energy from storm surge.
A wall fence keeps some things either in or out on both sides of the wall/fence. A canal is just so much more than that.  Considerate: 91%  
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Steel fencing can be easily cut. Concrete can be easily tunneled under or destroyed. Maintenance costs will be large. The goal of the wall is to make sure no one steps a single foot into the US as they can then stay while their asylum claim is processed, so you have to have the entire border manned at all times at small physical distances between manned stations.
If the wall gets money and begins construction and Democrats retake the White House in 2020 or 2024 construction will cease before it is finished leaving portions with no wall, which according to the pro wall rhetoric would leave whatever wall their is entirely useless as that's where we are now with the walls that we have. If Democrats maintain control of the house or the Senate will we just suffer a shutdown Everytime a new budget needs to be passed over a single minor issue?
Reforming the laws is the answer and vastly cheaper. Hardly any "bad guys" are crossing the border illegally, it's overwhelmingly families and children. The "bad guys" that are crossing the border would be the cartels who are very well funded and powerful and would have no trouble bypassing the wall as they already do.
The cartels rarely cross the border by walking over the line as that's the easiest way to get caught. We've already found tunnels that stretch for miles into US soil so that they can smuggle drugs in by getting behind border patrol. The drugs they do smuggle in are weed meth and heroin. Their weed market is dying with legalization, meth hardly contributes to ODs and fetanyl, primarily from China entering via airports, and prescription opiates, produced right here, account for ~70% of opiate overdoses without addressing either of those addicts will just shift their source, which they already are moving more and more towards fetanyl as it's significantly stronger at the same price. The real winners of a border wall would be those that make a business out of facilitating illegal crossings.
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We lost the Towers………
We gained a moat……..
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It’s not about cost a canal will pay for itself in many ways………………..
It’s all about the commitment of achievement. The challenge, rise above or we fall behind.
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"A fence is a direct act of greed as it serves such a limited purpose the general welfare. We build a canal for others but not ourselves. What happened to make America first again?"
Isn't there a fence around the White House?
Does that fence stand in the face of your statement?
How many US military installations acros the country have fences around them?
Do those fences stand in the face of your statement?
How many prisons and or jails have a fence around them?
Do those fences as well stand in the face of your statement as well?
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And stating this again, put a guard detail, or a guard force along the border wall, pulling guard duty along the very perimeter of that wall, along with gound penetrating radar as an anti tunnel device.
This way, the border wall, and the grounds below the border wall, and the perimeter along the border wall, are being secured by the border wall security, guard duty detail?
The above, could be a whole new job market?
A guard duty detail made up of say, 10,000-12,000 people? I wonder how many ex- military citizens, or US citizens in general, wouldn't go for that new job market?
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Couple these detectors to a modern super-computer cluster (you can lease one from a private organization for barely any costs), on which a neural network trained on human footsteps is running. Then, every time somewhere human steps are detected, and there is no record in the database indicating that someone should be there - you know someone is trying to pass the border, and can apprehend them summarily.
The cost of such a solution is about 1% of what Trump has requested for the wall; it is much more reliable (you cannot trick those detectors, or pass them without detecting you - unless you use a vehicle, which is tricky to do in the desert, especially if you are a broke Mexican runaway, or dig a tunnel, in which case a wall would not help either), does not require as much maintenance (these detectors run for hundreds years before breaking), does not look as barbaric (there are no Great Chinese Seismic Detector Walls), and frees up a lot of personnel from having to patrol barren areas.
---
I can think of thousands high technological solutions that are much cheaper and more effective than any walls. Instead of seismic detectors, you can also use heat detectors, hidden cameras, etc. You can even just patrol the border with a few hundred helicopters constantly - that will be far cheaper than any walls, and it is hard to miss a group of people running through a desert when you have such a huge view.
A wall is a sign of a very limited and outdated mind, someone who only sees the most direct solutions and cannot think even a few cm away from the edge of the box. Which does not describe Trump, so I do not think he himself seriously believes in the wall. He is a merchant to the bone, and he knows that the idea of the wall sells to a certain subgroup of people - but he surely is smart enough to realize that it is a waste of money that does not solve anything. He is much smarter than most of his followers, and do not mistake him for a simpleton based on his ramblings: he is a seller, and what he says is very different from what he thinks. He has been in a very hardcore business for decades, beating his competitors at most steps. He has a brain, and he knows what sells and what does not.
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@Zombieguy1987
"so why not just skip the construction time and hire a guard detail to stand along the border? It could be a bigger job market and still cheaper."
How familiar are you with real life guard duty infrastructures?
Explain in detail, how I should trust my life in your managerial hands, while working along a 2,000 plus mile border, with no barrier, and you're going to manage 10,000 plus people, with your managerial knowhow?
Include in detail, just how cheap, cheaper is?
@CYDdharta
Why not get into this conversation as well?
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"when did Trump appoint my as head of border patrol? Did I miss something?"
I've no idea.
But these are your words, right?
"so why not just skip the construction time and hire a guard detail to stand along the border? It could be a bigger job market and still cheaper."
So, what is your plan?
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"Americanism not Globalism, will be our credo." ~Donald Trump
"A communist is like a crocodile" ~Winston Churchill
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I fail to see the point of preventing physical entrance, when the goal really is to reduce the (alleged) negative effects illegal immigrants inflict on the country. An illegal immigrant stepping on the American foot and getting deported a couple of hours later has not inflicted any damage, aside from a few hundred bucks needed to apprehend and deport him/her - the wall costs a couple of orders of magnitude more per attempt of illegal entry. And given that we already pay the governmental employee by hour in any case, make it 3-4 orders of magnitude.
It seems to me that to you, Trump fans, it is now more of a matter of defending your dear leader's ego, than of actually solving any real problems. From pretty much any more-or-less logical perspective, the wall would be an incredible waste of taxpayers' money. You would do better to spend $10,000 on putting fake "Danger! Toxic Waste!" signs along the border - those would deter far more arrivals, than your wall, and save $15 billions, that can be used to buy a nice Hawaiian pizza for every American in celebration.
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I know very well what is happening. I am talking about how it could be dealt with in a more efficient way, than any walls.
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Blues and Raptors handed two very toxic teams embarrassing losses, 95% of the sports world is rejoicing in the news
Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
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1. A wall will not keep the illegals physically out of the US.
2. According to physics, there are no means existing to keep any object physically out of any area - aside from sinking it in a black hole. We do not have the funding to accomplish the latter.
3. Keeping the illegals physically out of the US is not necessary, if the problems posed by those immigrants are solved by other means.
Step outside your narrow box where the only solution to any problem is to take a hammer and go at it.
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It is not about "will", it is about using a logical approach. The illegal immigrants already cannot "just walk across the border whenever they feel like it", they need to prepare very well, and the wall will just add one more expense of approximately $4 to their inventory.
This ain't Hollywood, my friend. This ain't Aladdin with a genie lamp. In this real world simply willing something does not make it happen.
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Also @CYDdharta "They claim asylum and disappear into a sanctuary city "
So which one is it? Or does it change based on what narrative you want to tell?
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The clips of Obama and the dumazz Schumer show they want security etc but did what exactly to make that happen? What plans did they put forth? People as sick of the same b.s. of all talk and no action. This is one of many reasons we have Trump. For good or bad he's doing or trying to do what he said he would. What other president has actually done that to the extent he has? So we are left with this wall idea. Some of it has been built and he's talking about other ways to get it done. Fmpov it's either this or nothing. What other options are there for border security? Wait and see if a new president will do something? How's that worked out before Trump?
This is the previous administration's (all of them) fault, though many can't see it. If they had dealt with border security and immigration when they had the chance to, pushed it like he does, we wouldn't be talking about this. When you pass the buck this is what happens and what you get, enjoy.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
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You have a potato soup in your head, unable to parse simple concepts.
Your wall will not help with stopping tunneling in any way. Its aim is to help with the on-the-surface passage, and that, indeed, demonstrably can be overcome by investing $4 into it.
I do not care about the Congress; most of the people there are after votes, not solutions.
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New Mexico won't use county jails to house illegals. Bernalillo county, NM, will not use it's prisons to hold illegal immigrants and if one is in jail there it won't continue to hold them after their sentence is served. San Miguel New Mexico will not detain illegals. They don't interfere with ice, they just don't want to spend their taxpayer money to house the illegals.
Four counties south of Vegas' latitude in California won't honor ICE detainers, so there's your closest sanctuaries.
There are 141 various county state and city laws from refusal to use jails to house illegals to refusal to honor ICE detainers in non border states. The vast majority being in Oregon, Washington, Colorado and the Northeast excluding Maine and Delaware.
Sanctuary cities list
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Blues and Raptors handed two very toxic teams embarrassing losses, 95% of the sports world is rejoicing in the news
Repealing the Second Amendment is the first step to Totalitarianism, and it needs to be prevented to protect our freedom
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/
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Arizona
Chandler, AZ (Added 5/30/07, Congressional Research Service Report, 2006. The city disputes its listing. )
Mesa, AZ (Added 10-18-09, Sources: Judicial Watch; East Valley Tribune article,1-4-2008)*
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Massive difference between a state preventing ice from taking illegals at all, and just deciding not to use it's state jails as a place where Ice can put their detainees. That is state property paid via state taxes and the federal government doesn't have the jurisdiction to use them without consent, as in the case with new Mexico.
Your original point is still vastly wrong as most sanctuary cities are not on the border, not even 10% are. So do migrants by-and-large settle on the border of disappear into sanctuary cities?
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Nobody is disappearing in New Mexico. The federal government is allowed to take any illegal immigrants they want into custody there. ICE can do literally everything except put detainees in state prisons. So disappearing can only happen in 1/4 states. Even then Texas and Arizona make up more than 2/3 of the border and they aren't sanctuaries. Since New Mexico doesn't do anything to protect illegals are you trying to tell me that by-and-large all immigrants are living on the California border? Or maybe they are spreading into the Northeast and Northeast?
You see the word sanctuary and get instantly triggered. I guess you believe anything that is sanctuary is trying to kill ICE and putting illegals in mansions with armed guards. You clearly have no clue how many different laws can label a place as sanctuary. I would think you would support new Mexico's state rights not to have the federal government tell them how to spend their money. I guess you only care about states rights when it benefits you. Click on the bubbles in my source. Read the laws. Educate yourself.
Even if illegals were all living in sanctuary cities on the border then why do you care? Aren't the sanctuary cities formed by the libtards so only they are getting murdered and raped and losing their jobs. Here's another chance for you to stick it to those libtards. Or maybe you realize that illegals actually spread out through a lot of the country.
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El Paso wants a wall? Feel free to surround yourself with a wall. Chicago does not want a wall? Then go away, budget leeches, and waste your own money on your own territory.
Let us introduce strict border control in each city. This way we will certainly make sure that illegal immigrants will not get far. Too inconvenient? Oh, I am sorry, I thought convenience was secondary to safety.
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@TKDB
I have to apologize I somehow feel I crushed your cookies in your lunch box by saying a border fence is an act of greed.
The fence at the White house is ornamental part of the White House décor and has a visual eye pleasing quality. Yes it is a parameter identification, but….. it is hardly security in any way, shape, or form in whole truth.
Military Fencing, what military there is only Congressional/Presidential Armed Force and that fence is more to keep recruits inside a confided space as they tend to get restless at night. Again it is a parameter marker, I feel confident it is the fire pisser kept inside the fence that are being held and not the fools who wonder in. Speaking as just another fool who has been asked to wonder in from time to time. A past recipient of low bit work.
As for prisons, detention centers for the short term, most I have seen have many fences not one fence, and they keep people inside not outside. I’m not sure but I think it’s is the convicts inside the fence that keeps the people out of prison, and not the fencing around them. So isn't that one kind of agreeing with me?
Build fences around all states it is the result of use of Eminent domain that dictates the action of the United States here, and its used to acquire legal permission that screws with the open abuse.
So now we are back to the question why are legislators amending constitutional united state, with states of legislation that are not united, and are meant to be set on independence not constitution? It has been going on for a long time and it is simply ineffective. Really we are delving into plea bargain weight which is a different state of the union.
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https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/border-issues/2019/01/23/us-mexico-border-migrants-use-ladder-scale-wall-near-yuma-san-luis-cbp-asylum-seekers/2659930002/
How can a wall possibly be effective when backup would presumably be near by, at most about 6 minutes away, and when the ladder is on the wall they just have to sit there and watch.
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You obviously didn't give your post much thought, you may wish to in the future. "WordsMatter"
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
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Part of the issue is not to make entry illegal by require specifications of registration. Without proper registration specification authorities at a border can simple place unauthorized admission from Mexico back. We are dealing with independent people who are not braking a united states law, yet. By disobeying a rule which can lead to a more serious crime of longer detentions and full background investigation. The safety of legal entries from Mexico can be granted a common defense to their general welfare. Constitutional separation is a common defense to promote judicial efficacies, not create inefficient congestion by use of law.
A wall/fence is nothing but a way to ignore an unconstitutional use of law by lack of understanding. A wall/fence is an obstacle to slow not stop people. Rivers and canals are a translation made on a law of nature set against the same basic principle.
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The issue is with those immigrants who decide to come into the United States of America.
The other issues, are the 300 sanctuary cities, thar give sanctuary to those illegal immigrants, along with the various businesses that utilize those illegal immigrants to do work for them.
How do those 300 sanctuary cities get to legally give the 11-22 illegal immigrants sanctuary in the very face of the a country based on laws?
So what does the rest of the country do to react to those two situations?
Trying to get funding for the border wall, and to better the security for the border wall?
So in a sense, the entire country is dealing with a second "Cold War" starring, the 11-22 illegal immigrants already in tne United States, those 300 sanctuary cities, the business utilizing those illegal immigrants, the Border wall, border wall security, ICE, and the continuing influx of the illegal immigrants who came into the United States yesterday, and today, and the crimes that have been committed by the illegal immigrants, and the families who deal with those tragedies?
Why are some in country purposefully hurting the rest of the country, by apparently placing those millions of illegal immigrants above the rest of the country?
Hence the (second Cold War) reference?
We are a country of immigrants, but immigrants who all went through the proper legal channels to become citizens of the United States.
And to disregard that process is the flaw that has and is being exposed by those 11-22 illegal immigrants who are already in the country illegally, and who continue to come into the United States illegally.
The laws in our country are in trouble, and I dont get why some are harassing those laws, for the sake of the illegal immigrants, at a cost to the rest of the citizens themselves, day in, and day out, crime after crime?
The crimes that have been committed by those illegal immigrants, their committed crimes, are worth it, to they, being in, the United States illegally?
Because if some want to protest the Border Wall, why then, aren't the sanctuary city creators, taking to the streets, and protesting the crimes committed by the illegal immigrants, that have been given sanctuary within the very cities that they are living in themselves?
A guess, that's not how it works? The sanctuary city creators aren't maybe going to protest the crimes committed by those illegal immigrants, right?
Giving sanctuary to an illegal immigrant, is maybe or apparently, more important than the crimes, that they have maybe committed, right?
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I do not think Trump even remotely realizes what a wall he actually wants would cost. In human history before, walls have never been used to prevent a physical entry into a country; not a single time. Even Berlin Wall worked in conjunction with multiple layers of protection, the most essential ones being a line of sniper outposts.
The purpose of most walls in human history was to make the location more defensible in case of a military conflict. They had nothing to do with stopping random people from coming in.
Walls have been used to discourage less intent trespassers, but you can bet that people that abandon everything they own and walk towards another country with a sack on their back are intent enough to get some basic equipment in order to pass this pitiful obstacle.
A wall that would stop everyone who wants to cross it across the entire border... Why, I am not sure if this engineering challenge is even solvable with our current level of technology, in a way that will make the wall affordable to even the wealthiest nation in the world.
The wall Trump is trying to fund now is laughable. I passed harder obstacles when I was a naughty 8 years old kid, constantly getting in trouble.
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@CYDdharta
@Zombieguy1987
@Applesauce
@WordsMatter
Have any comments for the below?
The real issue isn't with the border wall, or the border security.
The issue is with those immigrants who decide to come into the United States of America.
The other issues, are the 300 sanctuary cities, thar give sanctuary to those illegal immigrants, along with the various businesses that utilize those illegal immigrants to do work for them.
How do those 300 sanctuary cities get to legally give the 11-22 illegal immigrants sanctuary in the very face of the a country based on laws?
So what does the rest of the country do to react to those two situations?
Trying to get funding for the border wall, and to better the security for the border wall?
So in a sense, the entire country is dealing with a second "Cold War" starring, the 11-22 illegal immigrants already in tne United States, those 300 sanctuary cities, the business utilizing those illegal immigrants, the Border wall, border wall security, ICE, and the continuing influx of the illegal immigrants who came into the United States yesterday, and today, and the crimes that have been committed by the illegal immigrants, and the families who deal with those tragedies?
Why are some in country purposefully hurting the rest of the country, by apparently placing those millions of illegal immigrants above the rest of the country?
Hence the (second Cold War) reference?
We are a country of immigrants, but immigrants who all went through the proper legal channels to become citizens of the United States.
And to disregard that process is the flaw that has and is being exposed by those 11-22 illegal immigrants who are already in the country illegally, and who continue to come into the United States illegally.
The laws in our country are in trouble, and I dont get why some are harassing those laws, for the sake of the illegal immigrants, at a cost to the rest of the citizens themselves, day in, and day out, crime after crime?
The crimes that have been committed by those illegal immigrants, their committed crimes, are worth it, to they, being in, the United States illegally?
Because if some want to protest the Border Wall, why then, aren't the sanctuary city creators, taking to the streets, and protesting the crimes committed by the illegal immigrants, that have been given sanctuary within the very cities that they are living in themselves?
A guess, that's not how it works? The sanctuary city creators aren't maybe going to protest the crimes committed by those illegal immigrants, right?
Giving sanctuary to an illegal immigrant, is maybe or apparently, more important than the crimes, that they have maybe committed, right?
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if he just sat there and watched does that sound like a good agent to you? you didn't say he reported it, filmed it, called for assistance etc, did you? do you think this wall wouldn't be manned, patrolled, have sensors etc?
it worked for Obama care.....
So you admit you don't know what the wall would be but yet you know it won't work, even though you don't know what it is or what it could be you just know it wouldn't work, gotcha.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
The Animals
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